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Cuban Missile Crisis offers lesson for nuclear tensions with Iran

September 7th, 2012
12:03 PM ET

The most confusing guessing game in the Middle East right now is if and when Israel will attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

This week Turkey's Prime Minister Erdogan told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour that he didn't think it would be likely. But the talk of war from Israel has the world on edge.

Amanpour Exclusive w/ Turkish PM: U.S. elections hampering Syria action

And there is a stalemate in the so-called last-ditch negotiations between the United States and its allies with Iran.

Contrast this with events fifty years ago this October, when the world stood on the brink of an all-out nuclear war. The Soviet Union had moved nuclear weapons into Cuba – just 90 miles off the United States.

Russia and the U.S. stood eyeball to eyeball—and President John F. Kennedy appeared on national television to prepare his nation for war. Yet, thirteen days later, the crisis was resolved and the threat averted.

Graham Allison of Harvard University and a former adviser on national security to numerous U.S. presidents says we can think about the current Iranian confrontation as a Cuban missile crisis in slow motion.

Allison says if President Kennedy had not stepped back and taken time to consider his options, we could have had a nuclear war in which 100 million or several hundred million people could have died instantly.

“During the crisis, Kennedy said to his brother, Robert Kennedy, that he thought the chances were something between 1 in 3, and even that it would end up in a war including a nuclear war,” Allison says. “And nothing that I've found subsequently or that other scholars have found looking at the record since then suggest that that's an exaggeration.”

With Iran’s nuclear program today, the conventional wisdom is that there are just two choices: appeasement or attack, as usual.

“These are two lousy options” Allison says.

“These are precisely the options Kennedy had at the end of the game in 1962. He rejected both options and intensified a search for finding some middle way. And that seems to me that's the appropriate lesson for the Iranian case today.”

In the Cuban missile crisis, you had two actors – the Soviet Union and the United States. President Castro of Cuba, who housed these missiles, was not allowed at the table. In the current standoff you have three actors: Iran, the United States, and Israel.

“That makes the game much more difficult than in 1962,” Allison says. Nonetheless, if the parties look at the outcome of attack – if they think about their interests, play that out and each of them will be worse off than they could have been with an alternative.”

Allison says he’s hopeful that after the November election, the U.S. will mount a major diplomatic initiative.

That’s assuming that between now and the November, Israel doesn't calculate that it must strike before voting day, believing that election pressure would be the only way to get the current U.S. administration to support a preemptive attack by its ally’s on Iran.

Iran steps up production of high-grade enriched uranium, U.N. report says

Christiane Amanpour, Ken Olshansky and Samuel Burke contributed to this post.

soundoff (43 Responses)
  1. Ceffas - Brazil

    Espero que comparativamente a cinquenta anos atrás, os USA consigam perceber os pontos similares entre o President John F. Kennedy e o atual presidente Barack Obama nas questões de pacificação e diplomacia, e do qual irão precisar para não dar um passo errado na história onde convergem os problemas entre Israel e Irã.

    September 7, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Reply
  2. Thinker23

    Back in 1962, the US did not "back off". To the contrary, President Kennedy made it very clear to the Soviets: move the missiles out of we'll do it fo you. Premier Khruschev preferred to lose his face over losing his country and, probably, his own life and removed the missiles. Even then neither the US nor the USSR declared that the other side had no right to exist and had to be destroyed.

    The situation between Iran and Israel is different. Iranian leaders declared on multiple occasions that their ultimate goal is destruction of the Jewish State. Further, they've promised to their own population and the peoples of the surrounding Arab states that when Iran would have nukes Israel would be destroyed. No amount of lies about "Israeli threats" can change these simple facts. Israel is a tiny state that was attacked several times in the past. It can not take chances when its very existence is on the stake. Israel will not use force against Iran unless as a last resort in case there will be no other way to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. If it happens it will be extremely dangerous for Israel but this is not a matter of choice, it's a matter of survival.

    September 7, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Reply
    • Will

      Israel's an oppressive nation-state, hell bent on complete eradication of the Palestinian people from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It has illegally seized and occupied land it stole. I'd prefer not to see Iran have an atomic weapon, but no doubt Israel is the cause of Iran's wish to acquire one.

      September 8, 2012 at 12:09 pm | Reply
      • David

        Iran is the threat to world peace – the combination of fanatic regime with nuclear weapon cannot be allowed. Anti-Israeli propaganda will not change that...

        September 8, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
      • Dan

        Bringing the Israeli Palestinian conflict into this debate is very narrow minded .if Israel had abused its own nuclear weapons the Gaza strip would have been wiped off the map already which is proof that Israel is trying to work out a diplomatic solution with its Arab neighbors (I.E. egypt and Jordan). A nuclear Iran would start an arms race in the middle east and eventually start a world war .Unfortunatley, this is exactly their intentions, and it is apparent by the regimes behavior .They are human rights violators and must b brought t justice by all those who value freedom and liberty.

        September 8, 2012 at 2:28 pm |
      • Thinker23

        You should try to GET A CLUE of what you're talking about... You see, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to occupy the enemy territory during a war. Further, the number of Palestinians living in Palestine would not INCREASE FIVE TIMES since 1948 if Israel was "hell bent on complete eradication of the Palestinian people from the West Bank and Gaza Strip." When you lie try at least make your lies believable.

        September 9, 2012 at 6:14 am |
      • Mohamed Shahid

        Israelis have all rights to capture the land they have now. Arabs have been killing Jews since 632. Islam invented by Arabs has taught Arabs to kill Jews and Christians. So the real owners of the whole Palestine are Jews. Muslims' holy city is Mecca, not Jerusalem. There is nothing mentioned about Jerusalem in the Qur'an.

        September 9, 2012 at 10:11 am |
      • Anonymous

        Right. Israel is an oppressive state yet it's the ONLY democratic state in the middle east. Israel has no problem with the Palestinians. 20 % of its populations are Arabs. The problem is when other countries want to eradicate Israel from the map. What Israel is doing is self-defence. Israelis would gladly have a palestinian state if they knew it would not wipe them off the map.

        All Israel wants is peace, and Irans nuclear weapons are a threat to that wish.

        September 9, 2012 at 12:54 pm |
      • jack

        really we stole it??? im pretty sure just about every bordering country decided that it was time to destroy isreal so we proved them wrong won the SIX DAY WAY (look it up) and conquered land so your telling me that we have no right to land that MUSLIMS still live in and can practice freely even though we had a whole war for it

        September 11, 2012 at 11:10 pm |
      • Moderate man

        It is alarming to look at the history of Israeli aggression against its neighbours during last 50 years.Tens of thousands of innocent people have been killed including women and children as a result.Israel's "might is right" policy can not go on protecting it forever. It needs to rethink and rethink hard.Israel needs to reach out to its neighbours,convince them and the world at large that it genuinely want to achieve peace by dialogue on the basis of equality and give and take.
        Pre-emptive strikes and arrogance will only make lasting peace very difficult to achieve. God also plays a part in serious matters like this and in his own time he always comes on the side of victim in a time of his choosing.

        September 12, 2012 at 6:37 pm |
    • Sam

      What a product of systematic brainwashing. Give me quotes or proof of Iranian policy makers and politicians stating they seek the destruction of Israel. Because I fail to believe that stating “Zionism should be wiped from the pages of time”…in order to achieve a “regime change”.. just like the “soviets”, in any way is cohesive to pursue in the destruction of an entire state, whilst on the other hand Israeli politicians have repeatedly ‘in public’ threatened Iran with a Nuclaer Strikes.

      This is not even about Iran wanting to persue Nuclear Weapons. Pakistan is a Sharia Islamic nation and has Nuclear Weapons, but because they are an American allied state and allow America military bases to occupy its severance, Washington has no problem what so ever. It’s about an Iran which refuses to bow down to the Americans Imperial Economic agenda which is serving your industry and most specifically the “American Industrial Complex”.

      Back in the 1950’s the CIA carried out a military coup against Iran, and removed its previous‘Democratic’ leader by branding him a communist, and then installed Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi who was an extremely suppressive dictator who ruled for 20 years in order to exploit its Oil, right until the Iranian revolution. This is about a state which opposes American military occupation and tactical exploitation of Arab resources. It has nothing to do with Nuclear Weapons. And during this period your nations was warned by the CIA of potential “Blowback”, i.e your nation was warned that covert operations ‘hidden from the American people of course’ which has resulted to an extremely abusive and oppressive policies in the middle east will result to massive retaliation, i.e the tragic events of 9/11, for example U.S based sanctions in Iraq early 90’s which killed 1 Million Iraqi Children was the main pivotal instigators which caused Osama bin Laden and his Saudi nutcases to attack the U.S.

      The U.S is no longer a ‘Democracy’, its Domestic Dictatorship defined be Bureaucratic values.

      September 8, 2012 at 12:23 pm | Reply
      • Thinker23

        If you "fail to believe that stating “Zionism should be wiped from the pages of time”…in order to achieve a “regime change” try to EXPLAIN how these goalss can be achieved WITHOUT destruction of Israel. Further, the Soviet Union failed when the people of the former Soviet Union democratically elected their own governments. Now you may recall that the people of Israel democratically elected their government at least SIXTEEN TIMES since Ayatollah Khomeini departed this world. Are you sure that all today's leaders of Iran want is the next elections in Israel?

        September 9, 2012 at 6:19 am |
      • Anati

        Unfortunately, we Israelis have no other choice but take these words very seriously, because the last one who used them really did a good job in wiping us off the world map. 6 millions of us. So excuse us, really, I did not bury my grandmother, she went up the chimney according to Hitler's plan to "Wipe the Jews off the Map".

        September 9, 2012 at 10:24 am |
    • aladdin sane

      Well that's the US version of events. Acually the US had to also withdraw its missiles from the USSR's asian border.

      September 8, 2012 at 5:40 pm | Reply
    • Awabnavi

      "Even then neither the US nor the USSR" - You conveniently forget that the USSR had called for the destruction of CAPITALISM and that means the USA and the rest of the so-called FREE (West European?) WORLD.

      September 8, 2012 at 8:01 pm | Reply
      • Thinker23

        Sorry, dear, but the USSR NEVER said that it will DESTROY CAPITALISM. It said that the peoples of Western countries would freely choose Communism when they'll realize how great the lives of the Soviet citizens were undr such system. I would have no problems with Iran in case Iranian leaders declared that people of Israel would one day freely chose Islam after seeing how great people live in Iran and other Muslim states.

        September 9, 2012 at 6:23 am |
    • arie heide

      In the second half of 1962 there were no missles from Russia in Cuba. As shown in all the newspapers worldwide with photo's of Russia ships and loaded on deck with large rockets or missles and the ships were on their way to Cuba. After busy talking and negotiations between Russia and USA both made a deal that USA NEVER ATTACK CUBA and that was the reason that Russia stop delivery the missles to Cuba and their ships with the missles return to Russia!

      September 8, 2012 at 11:37 pm | Reply
    • ADMV

      You are wrong. The US indeed backed off. As part of the negotiations,the US had to withdrawn their missiles in Turkey aiming to USSR. This was six month after the crisis.

      September 9, 2012 at 9:11 am | Reply
  3. Roberto Ruiz

    I predicted the world trade Center to be attack by air. My next prediction is nuclear missiles in Cuba from Iran.
    Cuba and Iran are getting closer and closer every day. Do your homework and you will see there has been meeting after meeting between cuba and Iran.

    September 8, 2012 at 3:54 am | Reply
    • Joseph

      Well, as I know, according to the history, Iran has been a superpower in the region. Even during Europe invasion to the world, Iran resisted, while the whole regions except Turkey were captured. What Iran has is the powerful historical background. I don't think Iran is going to make a chaos around the world. They are not mad, but they want to broaden their power. The nuclear power is thirteenth military power, and they would never use them to invade. That is the first step to prevent invasion. The United States is the only country which has used atomic bombs against humans. About 60 years ago, CIA ruined a democratic movement. I don't believe in politician, and I think MOST of them seek power, and through military power, and they fear from dying too!

      September 9, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Reply
  4. concernedtoo

    Somebody (wink,wink) wants to take out Iran's potential nuclear threat. Israel will do it and get the blame and suffer the casualties! Payback time!

    September 8, 2012 at 11:31 am | Reply
  5. Sam

    What a product of systematic brainwashing. Give me quotes or proof of Iranian policy makers and politicians stating they seek the destruction of Israel. Because I fail to believe that stating “Zionism should be wiped from the pages of time”…in order to achieve a “regime change”.. just like the “soviets”, in any way is cohesive to pursue in the destruction of an entire state, whilst on the other hand Israeli politicians have repeatedly ‘in public’ threatened Iran with a Nuclaer Strikes.

    This is not even about Iran wanting to persue Nuclear Weapons. Pakistan is a Sharia Islamic nation and has Nuclear Weapons, but because they are an American allied state and allow America military bases to occupy its severance, Washington has no problem what so ever. It’s about an Iran which refuses to bow down to the Americans Imperial Economic agenda which is serving your industry and most specifically the “American Industrial Complex”.

    Back in the 1950’s the CIA carried out a military coup against Iran, and removed its previous‘Democratic’ leader by branding him a communist, and then installed Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi who was an extremely suppressive dictator who ruled for 20 years in order to exploit its Oil, right until the Iranian revolution. This is about a state which opposes American military occupation and tactical exploitation of Arab resources. It has nothing to do with Nuclear Weapons. And during this period your nations was warned by the CIA of potential “Blowback”, i.e your nation was warned that covert operations ‘hidden from the American people of course’ which has resulted to an extremely abusive and oppressive policies in the middle east will result to massive retaliation, i.e the tragic events of 9/11, for example U.S based sanctions in Iraq early 90’s which killed 1 Million Iraqi Children was the main pivotal instigators which caused Osama bin Laden and his Saudi nutcases to attack the U.S.

    The U.S is no longer a ‘Democracy’, its Domestic Dictatorship defined be Bureaucratic values.

    September 8, 2012 at 12:22 pm | Reply
    • Thinker23

      If you "fail to believe that stating “Zionism should be wiped from the pages of time”…in order to achieve a “regime change” try to EXPLAIN how these goals can be achieved WITHOUT destruction of Israel. Further, the Soviet Union failed when the people of the former Soviet Union democratically elected their own governments. Now you may recall that the people of Israel democratically elected their government at least SIXTEEN TIMES since Ayatollah Khomeini departed this world. Are you sure that all today's leaders of Iran want is the next elections in Israel?

      September 9, 2012 at 6:25 am | Reply
  6. j

    That is a terrific question?

    Where do these people come from? No depth of thought.

    What about the whole of the middle east specifically the islamic countries and also russia?

    Not just that, now China will certainly get invovled aswell so nothing like the dynamics of the Cuban crisis.

    IDIOTS

    lack common sense.

    September 8, 2012 at 3:56 pm | Reply
  7. Jilbert

    Believe it or not ,Iran,Israel and USA need each other and they can be very good friends if only they could have the moral strenght to be more humble and to seat together and to discuss about every single question . It may seem utopia , but I strongly believe that this is possible and that this is the only solution possible . Israel has the right to be sure that Iran will never attack it with or without nuclear weapons,Iran has the right to have nuclear power fof civil purposes,and USA have the right to see their citizens safe wherever around the globe.My name is not Alice in wonderland,but I still believe in human highest values and commitment,for example faith in one God , dignity and honor and altruism . I really admire Mr. President Obama who does not use the Iranian question to have Jewish votes,and all Americans should appreciate this very important fact,because the man is putting world's safety as his first priority and he does not sell himself for votes.By the other side , Mr. Romney is giving hopes to Israel,he also is a close friend of Netanyahu.
    Now I ask you dear CNN forum readers,who is the right man to manage this very delicate situation?.
    Some time the very humble can win extraordinary battles,but this time you need also a very wise and very humble personality to win the war.The peace in the world is in danger and only the highest level pure spirit human beings can avoid it.Therefore please let me tell you . Do not kill the angel.

    September 8, 2012 at 5:50 pm | Reply
  8. ehsan k

    ignorance is bliss!!!

    September 8, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Reply
  9. Bill Simpson

    CNN will need to hire a LOT more correspondents if they nuke each other. Don't be in the stock market if a nuke goes off, anywhere. Goodbye global trade, hello depression. No food exports might be a little problem too.

    September 8, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Reply
  10. arie heide

    And as of now USA never attacked Cuba, but only declared a boycot of a lot of things for Cuba. CIA tried a small invasion on Cuba with the help Cuba traitors and mafia, but they failing !

    September 8, 2012 at 11:49 pm | Reply
  11. raymond

    the problem is guys, whether iran is trying to build a nuclear weapon or not, which i think its definately not anymore. and its regime is not fanatic not dictortor, but is elected by the people (who are very western loving, as they say who has been there) But its all a propaganda against iran. Why isnt the US govt trying to oust the saudi arabian govt whose 16 of the 19 pilots smashed the twin towers. Why isnt it trying to free the bahrain people from their dictators. Plaese try to understand its all a propaganda, changing the statements of the iranian president and showing that they are dangerous. Its all about the oil, as Iran is the only unconquered oil rich nation who is prospering even after 33 years f sanction and is not afraid to say the reality of Israel and what they do in gaza.
    Please understand this before another war is started by americ's money..

    September 9, 2012 at 3:08 am | Reply
    • Thinker23

      Usually people (and states) try to help their friends and fight their enemies. Saudi Arabia and the US are allies while Iran is an enemy of the US and Israel. The terrorists who murdered 3000 Americans on 9/11 came from Afghanistan, not from Saudi Arabia. Still further, as long as the Palestinians in Gaza are willing the war against Israel to continue it means that they're happy with its results. Finally, if someone will start another war it will not be the US or Israel. Most probably, it will be Iran and the US and Israel will have no choice but to fight back... American money or not.

      September 9, 2012 at 6:31 am | Reply
      • No NonSense

        You need to get your fact right... Terrorist came from Islamic countries those are or were alies of USA for example Saudi, Egypt, UAE and training in Pakistan/Afghanistan.
        Ussr never backed out, it gave last ultimatum stating that the aggression of US towards Cuba will result into a nuclear war which both sides will regret and as any smart president, both sides decide to calm down..
        Are you from Bush family Mr Thinker? Seems like you understand 1 language, and that is language of war.

        September 9, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
  12. Thinker23

    My facts ARE right. The 9/11 terrorists came from Afghanistan where the Taliban regime allowed them to organize and train. This was not the case in their native Arab counties where some of the terrorists (including Osama Bin Laden) were expelled of.

    The USSR Did back off, removed its missile bases from Cuba and turned the ships carrying missiles to Cuba back.

    Yours truly has nothing to do with the Bush family, is fluent in five languages and always said that when the Arab states, Iran, the Palestinians and their friends will recognize Israel and will ask for peace negotiations Israel will gladly agree.

    When your claims and the facts contradict each other it is not the facts that should be corrected... Any other questions?

    September 9, 2012 at 3:10 pm | Reply
    • No NonSense

      Read about cuba missile crisis at wikipedia.com to start with, and then other material.
      Dont feed yourself on the news from US or Israel media. Because according to USA, Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and none found yet, and no friend went to war, just US. Infact US govt. pushed countries to go to war with them. Finally, if someone will start another war it will be the US or Israel. History can prove how many wars US has been into as compared to any other state in the world.
      If you can read and write 5 languages, better start understanding 1 atleast to get your facts right.

      September 10, 2012 at 1:23 am | Reply
      • Thinker23

        Sorry, dear. Saddam not only HAD weapons of mass destruction but he USED them killing about 60,000 Iraqi civilians. Further, if you think that Israel will start a war you should have no troubles to explain the benefits Israel will gain from it. The fact is that Israel did not start a single war in its entire history. Still further... Did you DISAGREE with something I've said? If so WHAT WAS IT? Please realize that as long as you can not answer this question it means that you've agreed with EVERY WORD.

        September 10, 2012 at 7:22 pm |
  13. Kulow Ali

    According to Iraq Body Count Project, “200,000 Iraqis were killed, more than 2million displaced, and 4,500 American soldiers killed, 40,000 + severely injured,” I therefore; hope and pray that the American public will not support this blood thirty country.

    If Iranians want to have a nuclear weapon, that is a personal choice, and no country can dictate another sovereign nation. America is the only country that has developed nuclear capabilities and has used it; so American should not be in a position to talk about nuclear weapons.

    September 9, 2012 at 4:29 pm | Reply
    • Thinker23

      If you think that Iran has a right for a "personal choice" to build nuclear weapons while declaring that another state should be "erased from the map" this other state has no less right for a "personal choice" to turn Iran into a radioactive wasteland if it will determine that Iran is indeed building nuclear weapons.

      September 10, 2012 at 7:13 pm | Reply
  14. ali

    amanpour. why would you equate a country with a civilian nuclear energy program being vilified by a nation that is known to have lied to the world multiple times RE: causus belli...with the mexican stand off that was the cuban missile crisis? america is fooling its people and, to a degree the rest of the world, that the 'alleged' nuclear weapons program is a real enough threat that we can justify a war against the country. we have no proof, but this minor point is being quietly swept under the rug. we can't trust israel since they have an agenda to maintain a qualitative advantage over all comers in the ME and iran's progarm is POTENTIALLY the biggest threat to that (remember osirak...?). have we killed iranian civilians? yes we have. have we violated iranian sovereignty? yes we have. have we perpetuated proxy wars against iran that killed millions? yes we have. do we have 50 military bases surrounding their country? yes we do. in light of these FACTS we can actually applaud iran for showing remarkable restraint. seeing as how iran has the capability to severely degrade american quality of life and the balance of peace and power in the ME.

    September 9, 2012 at 4:50 pm | Reply
  15. Ochegbudu O.E (08181567257)

    This is injustice! Do you mean you people keep mentioning terrorism without mentioning the American State? With 11 aircraft carriers, parading the world oceans and BULLYING their real and perceived foes. Many are so loud at calling the Arabs terrorists. But which one of you will not resolve to arms if strangers came to your Fathers inheritance and started showing you where to step and where not to step? When the Israelis go nuclear, no problems but, when the Arabs go nucear, the general slogan is, "get 'em they are terrorists". Injustice at its very best. What is good for the goose is good for the gander....

    September 10, 2012 at 10:57 am | Reply
  16. Thinker23

    I'm sorry to burst your bubble but it's the Arabs who are telling the Jews where to step and where not to step in he land of Jewish inheritance. It's not Israel declaring that the Arabs do not have a right to have a state (or even TWENTY TWO states) but the Arabs declaring that the Jews should not be allowed to have a state. Further, if the Arabs were assured that Israel does not have nuclear weapons whey would try to destroy the Jewish state again as they've done in 1948, 1967 and 1973. The resulting was would result in hundreds of thousands or even millions of Arab casualties meaning that Israeli nukes are saving a lot of Arab lives.

    September 10, 2012 at 7:02 pm | Reply
    • Joseph

      First, Iranians are not Arabs, common mistake. Second of all, the promised land is for your religion, not any other one. You could go and inhabit there, but not killing people and force them to leave. It is not promised land from the God, it is forcing people going out of their homes. Whole America, south, north and middle, was for native American. So please everyone go out! It is not logic, it is a mask to occupying a land.
      And finally, Persia was the land of Persian before any religion, so with same logic they must have nukes to defend their lands.

      September 11, 2012 at 2:34 am | Reply
      • Thinker23

        Joseph... I'm not sure who you've replied to but I've NEVER said that Persians were Arabs. I've said that it were Arabs who were telling the Jews where to step and where not to step in he land of Jewish inheritance. Further, if the Arabs did not attack Israel on the first day of its existence no one would be killed or forced to leave. It is unfortunate but people are being killed in ANY war and the wars the Arabs started trying to destroy Israel were not an exception. Still further, no one is willing to attack PEACEFUL Iran (Saddam is dead long ago) but force WILL be used against Iran in case Iranian leaders will process with their nuclear weapons program.

        September 11, 2012 at 8:14 am |
      • jack

        are you crazy there not making nukes because of self defense if you didn't know this i would like to tell you that iran has a alot of enemys but not america and isreal i mean saudi arabia and iraq... iran just want's to be seen as a great power in the middle east im sure some one is crazy enough to send a nuke off but isreal would be the first to know react and counter attack and hopefully conquer because i don't know about you but i would like gas prices going down

        September 11, 2012 at 11:22 pm |
  17. NJ

    It is interesting to watch this war being played out by armchair politicians, generals and historians in text under this video. Perpetuating myopic positions of division by choosing to stand in old worn out footsteps, repeating the antiquated rhetoric of one bias or another under the safety (in numbers) of there various banners for ever and ever..

    October 6, 2012 at 3:07 pm | Reply

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